Unpacking Relay's vision for the next generation of wireless networks at XNET's Behind the Build

Watch the new episode of Behind the Build podcast featuring Relay Wireless. Co-founder of Relay, Elijah Lomaka, is joined by the senior team at XNET where they discuss current problems of wireless industry and the next generation of the wireless networks.

Episode on Youtube

Episode transcript

Shaan@ 

Welcome to another episode of Behind the Build. Today we have Elijah Lomaka, who is the founder and CEO of Relay Wireless. Relay Wireless is an all -in -one platform to manage, operate, and scale wireless networks. Elijah, glad to have you on buddy. If you want to just start with some background introduction. 

Elijah@ 

Absolutely. Thanks so much, Shaan and Steve. Super nice to be here. And excited to talk about what both of our teams building at Dexnet and really is like super well aligned and everything's happening in DUI depth and however you want to call it these days. 

Elijah@ 

It's so many different abbreviations. Starting with some background on me. I come from enterprise product design background. So most of my work has been in building enterprise software for different industries. 

Elijah@ 

Also done quite a lot of consumer software as well. Customer software, consumer software as well. So like I got both of the worlds, but just so it happened. Mostly worked on enterprise side of things and really got throughout my career, really got down to these like when you build enterprise software, you essentially have two ways to doing it. 

Elijah@ 

You can either keep pushing the complex agenda and keep building complex interfaces or you can start. Basically trying to simplify everything you build because enterprises are usually a lot more complex than consumers and consumer software. So it happened is really well driven by I think apples and Googles of the world. 

Elijah@ 

I know Steve, you've been you've been at Google. So you definitely know how everyone's trying to simplify and make it simpler. While on enterprise side, it's not always happening. So it's been like throughout my career, been really trying to master this art, especially being in design, like how do you get fewer clicks? 

Elijah@ 

How do you get faster to the correct actions? You know, how do you build interfaces that enable enterprises just be more more cost efficient, more action efficient and just get get to what they need to do as fast as possible. 

Elijah@ 

And I started in D .Y. back in 2019, 2020, when I was at Logitech. We had a couple of projects that were on the edge between hardware and software. You guys know that Logitech has a pretty big line up of hardware products. 

Elijah@ 

And I was in a software team and so it happened that guys were building a moving moving hardware piece. And we all know the situation that you walk once to San Francisco, you have perfect coverage, turn around, you're blacked out. And as a human, you can take your phone and you know, find the direction where you where you got some bars, but as a machine, it's much harder for the machine to understand and go find that coverage. 

Elijah@ 

So the question was like, OK, how do you provide that ubiquitous connectivity for the for the machine to never go, go, you know, blacked out. And the team was basically exploring different opportunities and what what technologies to use. And helium was at the inception point at that moment, starting to go public with ICO and everything that we're doing. 

Elijah@ 

And it was very interesting use case for Laura one being decentralized. And and, you know, I I always been very cautious with like going into crypto is crypto in the beginning felt very speculative. It's like just, you know, all of the defy stuff, I get you want to kill banks and like make it so everyone has access to everyone. 

Elijah@ 

But it's just it's going to take years. And when I saw helium and decentralized wireless at large, it really was the first time when I saw the real application of what what blockchain and decentralization can do to real world technologies. 

Elijah@ 

Right. And thinking about the idea how you could potentially simplify all of these all these hardware pieces. So pretty much my mom and my grandma can go and deploy them on their rooftops, right, and then provide coverage for every every day. 

Elijah@ 

All of us, right, with demand is going so high. Everyone's using so much bandwidth these days. It felt it felt really natural and felt like like a great, great opportunity for blockchain to integrate into a real world. 

Elijah@ 

And also the idea of it being tokenized and people have like natural incentives to go and build it was was was really something that got me super interested. So that's how the whole really things started. We just basically went in with a couple of my friends deployed about 250 devices across five, six countries. 

Elijah@ 

Early days helium devices. And then essentially we hit the wall with the idea of like, how can we manage all of this at scale? It was really painful. We used spreadsheets, we used third party apps. 

Elijah@ 

We had to like, you know, be very hacky. And that was just 250 devices, you know, there's companies like you guys said, sorry, you guys said when you said hexagon, you know, you build out a lot, a lot more coverage. 

Elijah@ 

Others like Ambrits of the world built up thousands of devices, you know, and that's just within DUI. So, you know, we started we started looking at larger traditional telecom and how things were built. in traditional world of telecommunications. 

Elijah@ 

And we realized that it's actually super painful for all of these ISPs and WSAP companies and telecommunication carriers to build out these networks in the efficient way. Most of them are using internal software or they run on like multiple third party applications. 

Elijah@ 

Very often they're not wireless native and it just makes the whole process not cost efficient, painful, long. And I think I've been watching the previous episode because it was Miguel. And he called it a big puzzle, I guess. 

Elijah@ 

I think that's what he used. So when you want to deploy that network, you're doing a big puzzle and at the end of the day, you're lying humans to do that. So we're really trying to answer the question of how you can automate and optimize this process through software because it's no longer 1999, when everything was starting to build out, software is at the very mature stage and you can build great applications to allow much easier and a more efficient way to build out these wireless networks. 

Steve@ 

Yeah, I could totally sympathize with that. You know, managing hundreds of assets, your tool set starts to include lots of random hacky things like custom scripts and spreadsheets and maybe some purpose -built software. 

Steve@ 

And it's a big spaghetti mess and you lose focus on the key metrics, the key performance of the fleet and you lose focus on where the problems are. And so that's never a good thing. Maybe like give us a sense of your thesis. 

Steve@ 

So you're building software for people who deploy a lot. And DY, D -PIN is also appealing to sort of weakened warriors, the onesie -toosie friends and family type. So what's your thesis on why, what role do big deployers play in this world in contrast with smaller onesie -toosie? 

Steve@ 

Maybe give us a little mindset there. 

Elijah@ 

That's a great question, Steve. So it's good to say that we only work with large scale deployers. Really is a platform that's solely serving. On the helium side, we classify large deployers, someone who has but 100 plus IoT devices and save 5 to 25 plus 5G sites. 

Elijah@ 

And obviously, other projects like XNET and the one that are coming soon, will have slightly different classifications based on their requirements. But we are solely working with large scale deployers, because we believe large scale deployers is the key, most important user group and DIY that's going to drive adoption and build out all these networks. 

Elijah@ 

I think there's a lot of wishful thinking in crypto world, because crypto is so driven by general people, or people, punks that want to change the world. And there's definitely that application 100%. And I think that once you choose, as you call them, there's people like Gristle can, for instance, like I think he's a great role model in this way. 

Elijah@ 

That dude, he's so just, he's a savage and all these technical things. He'll love to poke around. He'll love to build out these smaller things and projects. And it's just be hands down on all that infrastructure and figure it out. But it's really, as I said, it's a wishful thinking to think that my mom will go and figure it out herself. 

Elijah@ 

So that's why we believe that, similar to what happened in traditional wireless, where I would say 90% of the networks are accounted to telecommunication carriers, like your ATTs and Verizon. I don't say that's going to exactly happen the same way in DIY, where there's going to be like three companies, because that's exactly what we're trying to avoid here. 

Elijah@ 

But I say that definitely there's going to be hundreds and thousands of, and that's what actually I think DIY did, is allowed a much broader spectrum of organizations just come in and put a lot less capital into build out all of these and just become the ISPR -wisted themselves. 

Elijah@ 

But it still has the bottleneck. There's a bit of big bottleneck up, actually deploying the network and then maintaining that network, especially giving all of the early days of DIY, where everything has to be maintained. 

Elijah@ 

Unlike traditional world that's very stable in many cases, you just deploy your hardware and you rarely maintain it or upgrade it whenever cycle comes. In DIY, you have to deal with all of the issues and flash out a lot of bugs and go to those sites. 

Elijah@ 

And it's just slightly, it's delusional to think that consumers will drive that. Unless there's a big shift and change, like for instance, like Helium is trying to push these smaller consumer -oriented hotspots that just plug into your outlet at home. 

Elijah@ 

On the mobile coverage side, you guys are deploying these huge radios, like every day at XNET. It's really, it's just delusional to think that general people will go and build out those radios and their rooftops. Now, I think that going back to your podcast with Miguel, you said very interesting thing there that, for instance, XNET is not just about these organizations building out all of these complex networks. 

Elijah@ 

XNET is also about enabling communities in specific use cases, covering their problematic areas. And I think that's probably like, I would classify it this way that probably most of the coverage will be built out by DIY ISPs or WISPs, organizations that will drive, say, 50, 100, 200 plus sites of the connectivity that will be maintained, that will be up to the standard. 

Elijah@ 

It's especially important to ensure network guys. And I think that's why it's going to be so successful because you're keeping it up to a standard and not just throwing coverage because of earnings into whatever place it can be. 

Elijah@ 

Or the other way it's going to be largely driven is by people who actually have problems in underserved areas and they can deploy a certain amount of radios. And it's still not going to be one radio. It's going to be a cluster of radios. It's going to be a specific small network that's going to exist in that community. 

Elijah@ 

So really, we're seeing that and we want to, we're all about fundamentals really at this stage. So we ask who is going to be, we ask ourselves who is going to be the driven force and build out of all of these networks and how we can help as a platform. That's why we have super narrow focus just on the people who are actually serious about it to the highest extent possible and the most serious group of builders, our large -scale deployers. 

Elijah@ 

People who are just not, who are in it, not just for earnings or like whatever, staking, they're in it for actual coverage and actual solving problems longer term. People that will maintain, they will not give up after three months of trying. 

Elijah@ 

And that plays out super, super well in our side because like, you know, we have maybe 50 to 100 companies using the platform. And it's, it's simple for our team to keep up with all of the feedback, work with every individual to pour specifically to understand their use cases. 

Elijah@ 

And, you know, I think that's something that we did really well with Hexagon Wireless, for instance, we just just got in the line with them and like started asking questions, they gave us feedback. And we were able to execute that feedback swiftly rather than having no application that can be used by anyone and never get a chance to really fix larger important things. 

Shaan@ 

No, I think we echo that vision kind of Elijah that you just said. Um, I think enterprise deployers, I think we share the vision. I think Masari has had a post about it. I know it relays very aligned with it, but in a way, right? Like when do I first started, at least in the CBRS mobile game, like obviously each segment's a bit different due to just kind of technicals, but when mobile started, it was like, all right, let's, we can put, put this shit up anywhere we want, right? 

Shaan@ 

And you can build a mobile network, everything will be great. We're going to eliminate Verizon. But then I think the space quickly realized that that's not really how it works. And I think the extent approach is, I think like the fundamental, like when a rock hits the water, right? 

Shaan@ 

The initial point of impact, that's, it has to be made by enterprise deployers, whether that be the hexagons, whether that be ISPs, wisps, because just like the teams they have, the understanding and knowledge they have of the space, I think the key things is you need to build something serious. 

Shaan@ 

So again, the metrics of uptime, um, throughput, you know, having the etiquette backhaul, I think building that proper base when the rock hits the water is essentially important. And then I think the community can literally blow it up outside. Cause then like we can go and be like, here you can put up a 430 or a smaller end radio inside your house. 

Shaan@ 

But even maybe the person that brings it to a community and all these houses will also be, um, we'll also kind of need this enterprise management software, right? Because say I walk around the apartment and put, put one in like neighboring apartments, um, I could easily get to 50 radios. 

Shaan@ 

And at the end of the day, the end user doesn't want to have to deal with any of that stuff. So I definitely see the potential that relay has. And I think that kind of bridges me to the next question. Um, we talked about kind of the deployment side and the management of the metrics, how that's important for success in this space. 

Shaan@ 

But I think another key thing, not just for D Y, I think deep in and crypto in general, that's, that's kind of a hurdle, but I'm glad to know that you guys are solving it at relay. Elijah is everyone talks about it always, right? The crypto to fiat off ramp. 

Shaan@ 

Like I feel like it's just a statement these days. Like people talk about it. I know multiple teams are building stuff for it, but it's like that example I gave of, all right, I want to go across the street and put something in my, my apartment. 

Shaan@ 

And these people know nothing about crypto and we don't want them to essentially right? Because maybe that results in them not deploying. So how does relay view the crypto to fiat off ramp issue? And what are you guys doing to, like, how do you view it? 

Shaan@ 

Basically, how do you build something like that at scale? 

Elijah@ 

Yeah, and I think that really pairs well with something that you were talking about just a second ago. I wanted to expand that a little bit before I go into the crypto to fiat on frame issue. That I think that there's also something that I really like but you're doing guys at Xnet is that they're also like, why do you reinvent the world? 

Elijah@ 

You have this market of like say 4 ,000 ISPs in the United States, right? Which you can go partner with most of these companies and then have them build out the coverage on top of their existing sites. That would be very simple. 

Elijah@ 

Build out sort of approach, right? Go to market as you may say with your network. And I think that you can run in circles and try to create all these fancy tokenomics and get people to earn tokens and all of that stuff. 

Elijah@ 

But at the end of the day, you want to have that high -end coverage and that high -end coverage could be built out by people that actually build other high -end coverage before that, you know, because they're when you did that. 

Elijah@ 

So I think that that's what, especially we're going to be seeing like over the next couple of years is this great trend of traditional wireless buying into DY. And, you know, because DY economics at the end of the day, they make most sense. 

Elijah@ 

In traditional world, you just, you know, you have to sort of, that's why there's so many underserved areas because you don't have incentive to build out there, right? But with DY, that sort of cover through tokenomics and you can have that initial incentive that eventually transition to being a real business that brings revenue. 

Elijah@ 

So I think that's going to be super important. That's what's going to drive majority of the adoption and the network side. These traditional wireless buying into DY and building out most of the coverage, would that be on their own sides or new sides? 

Elijah@ 

Those people know how to do it and they will get to the lead side. Going back to your questions, Sean, around the crypto to fiat off -ramp, I think that's one of the key things. And that's certainly something that we saw early days with relay when we were just deploying and sort of trying to understand the market ourselves with the old Helium IoT devices. 

Elijah@ 

What, like just to give you some context, we actually, me and my friends, we sort of like understood right away that if we wanna, like we had this interesting model where we actually, we had no employees in the company and we went like partner to host model. 

Elijah@ 

It's the way we called it. And the way it worked is that we would find basically two types of people in local communities, ones that would be more hands -on and would want to dedicate more time. And those people would call partners and we would test them to do some sort of general maintenance on the devices and infrastructure. 

Elijah@ 

And the other type of people we just host to provide locations, sometimes partner can be both. And so it happened that most of the people never wanted to do anything with crypto, because crypto is a scam for a lot of them and they don't understand the difference. 

Elijah@ 

And it's still, adoption is still early for all the blockchain. As geeks, we understand how beautiful it is and what it brings to the world. But a lot of people, I agree with Sean that don't wanna deal with it. 

Elijah@ 

So that was one of the key sort of, one of the key pieces of functionality that we built early on. And it's done in a very simple way, right? Like I don't want to, I don't want to, something that I tell everyone who comes to realize that really isn't beta, and we're really about solving fundamental, I'll say we said this on this show. 

Elijah@ 

And that means we just make simple systems at this stage that solve those problems. And we don't want to over complicate that solution. So everyone can come in and sign underneath it and say, okay, you know what, this sounds logical, super simple model, we can do that. 

Elijah@ 

So for instance, with helium, it's just in taking data, calculating that data, swapping that data, literally just data, you're not actually swapping anything on chain and then just sending it to banking system and fiat currency and then processing that either international or domestically here. 

Elijah@ 

So it's just, I think that our company is very web too grounded in many ways. And I think that's, it's actually a big plus for us, especially when it comes to enterprises, people have hard time changing between errors and enterprise software. 

Elijah@ 

And, giving this simple understandable and easy way for them to understand how the payouts actually work 0 to 1 without anything fancy being done on chain and like all of this stuff you know behind the behind the behind the ball where like you know you're giving them or you have to actually get person up to speed with like polygon or like slot slot like you want to avoid all of those things you want to come to talk to that administrator say hey look it works really simple just data you have really literally nothing's happening like you can stop at any point and then once you're actually ready you can go and process it in your bank your own self so it's all very transparent and controlled by you right now 

Steve@ 

I think I mean I'd love to see a demo. I think we can give us a quick run through of the real 

Shaan@ 

interface. Yeah, because there's always that question. I was recently, I was like a tech tech kind of startup event here. And it was mostly kind of older people, not blockchain friendly. 

Shaan@ 

Like it all made sense. Like, you have this like line upward graph of like where they're following you one to one everything makes sense the spectrum, the technology makes sense. But then you get to like the token part. And then, like at that part, they're like, I would just prefer cash. 

Shaan@ 

And then I'm going to like explaining the token and like, like why the token makes more sense. But at the end of the day, if they don't even want to hear it, then like, I guess, we'll see your demo about it, right? 

Shaan@ 

Like, I think that's like, a leg we got a surpass here in DIY. 

Elijah@ 

Absolutely. A couple of things before we jump in. So, platform is in beta, as I said, it's privately available for large -scale deployers. So, if you're a large -scale deployer and having hard times operating your fleet, feel free to DM us, jump on our site and schedule a demo with us. 

Elijah@ 

It could be rough on edges sometimes, so just appreciate your understanding guys. It's also serving just helium at the moment. We're working on enabling other great projects like XNet. So, some things would be just helium specific, just to put that out. 

Elijah@ 

Let me share my screen. Can you guys see my screen? Yep. So, something that I said that it's sort of echoes throughout the platform is that we're trying to build a very simple part. Wireless is in itself very complex, technical industry, and we just don't see the need for the software that runs wireless to be also complex. 

Elijah@ 

It's something that I take a lot of pride in. I'm very proud of our teams that we're just really trying to be super simple and super straightforward with all of the interfaces we're building. So, here you can see that you have very straightforward interface with your sidebar that leads you to most of the important sections as a deployer. 

Elijah@ 

Here's your payout reports, payments. You can track your wallets. There's some dashboard metrics in here. You have your user base, which contains the organization center and your users. Deployments area of your business, your locations, devices. 

Elijah@ 

You can configure your organization through settings, and then you have a bunch of actions that you can take in a platform. Something worth explaining is that payouts are powered by mainly four of these below tabs, organizations, users, locations, and devices. 

Elijah@ 

The way we're doing it, and again, the idea here should be super simple, right? It's just give an organization the way to lay out all of the data in a simple, understandable way. So, add your users. Let's go to Adriana here, for instance. I've added Adriana. 

Elijah@ 

Give it a second to load. That's the beta stuff, guys. I can see all of the Adriana's details. I can see data associated with Adriana, or the helium devices associated with them. I can set commissions for Adriana that will then power the payout report. 

Elijah@ 

I can see payment methods of Adriana, Adriana's payment fee, as you can see here. I can see different balances that are internal to... Every organization that runs and really have its own internal ledger, and these balances reflect it. 

Elijah@ 

So, basically, you can keep track of all the transactions that your organization had in previous throughout your entire history, even pre -relate, because we have the ability to import that, if needed. And some things like notes and logs. 

Elijah@ 

You can go into locations, do pretty much the same thing. As you can see, we have a lot of sites in Portugal. Portugal is like mother of DUI in many ways. Same thing. You can see here fees that associate with this location device that's installed here. 

Elijah@ 

Notes, logs, some essential information. Same goes on device side. You can see your hardware and different statuses. Your hardware is in. You have your own internal deployment status, your network status that's customly calculated for helium. 

Elijah@ 

Going into college brand brand here. Owner, location, network configuration, diagnostic section, where you can see earnings of this specific device, what the activity of this device has produced. Fees associated with this device, connected directly to user's or organization that you're paying for. 

Elijah@ 

And then all of this, all of this users locations and devices data, pretty much feeds into payout reports, where you can calculate a payout report based on the commission. You specify for user organization. Going to that specific payout report, review each and every specific payout item as we call it. 

Elijah@ 

And request earnings data, for instance, that's something that we built for Helium with their move to Salana and Oracles. It's pretty hard for the players to see behind the wheel, how all of the data is calculated. 

Elijah@ 

So you can just request data from here. And then clicking the start processing button will send you into payments, which I don't have a view for you at the moment to show, but it's essentially going to allow you to process all of your payments based on the payment method, each specific individual user has within their account. 

Elijah@ 

So that system looks at all of your, our system looks at all your users, groups then based on payment methods, say you have 100 users, 50 of them are paid in bank accounts, Fiat and 50 of them are paid on Salana. 

Elijah@ 

So they will create two groups of people and just process all of the Fiat payments to one group and all of the Salana payments to other group. Super simple, super straightforward. You got all of the transactions receipts back into relay. 

Elijah@ 

So it's all accounted for you, whatever you need to use it for taxes or for other purposes of accounting, you're happy and welcome to do that. So again, really the idea here is to avoid the complexities that wireless bring and just simplify wireless in many ways. 

Elijah@ 

And I know it's at large, it's sitting on sort of operational side at the moment because you have the CRM with all the users, but that's exactly where we're also going to be building at large for actually technical stuff as well, for your field operations and for people that are going to building it out, issues and ticketing and how can you send all of the data between your team and that data be just one platform rather than having these different separate places where you have to keep track of things and you always lose stuff and always lose data and that forbid using like paper and pencil at these days, which unfortunately a lot of ISPs are still using with their friends at certain locations. 

Elijah@ 

So really, if we want to, you're happy to expand to that, but something that we really like ground ourselves in is just simplifying to the, whatever lengths possible this entire process. 

Steve@ 

That's an amazing run through. Yeah, I mean, that captures like most of the needs of a large deployer, cash, fiat payments or a crypto type settlement process along with tracking all the assets. I mean, I can remember managing my fleets and running Python scripts and handling private keys in a command line interface, very sketchy. 

Steve@ 

Don't recommend that. So this is definitely a better option. And I like to see the emphasis on the large deployers. I'm curious, you talk to a lot of large deployers. Besides the overall complexity inherent in managing a fleet, we've talked about all those complexities. 

Steve@ 

I'm curious what other pain points you see for large deployers, maybe outside of that or within that, whatever you think. Like what are the other pains? Where do you see your platform headed? Maybe you could talk in general about that. 

Elijah@ 

That's a great question, Steve. Something that plays up very nicely for our own hand is that wireless has so many pain points in so many different directions. And that's, I think, why we're all building here. 

Elijah@ 

And that's such a great community of builders and DY and traditional wireless in general. Because it's just one of those fundamental technologies that all of us need. Like humanity won't survive. Or it's going to be so hard for humanity to exist without robust communications between each other on long distances. 

Elijah@ 

And I think that, going back to your question, operations and management is one thing. It's like, assuming you have deployed your hardware, but actual deployment process is something that a lot of traditional wireless is suffering with. 

Elijah@ 

Because not to say that there's no tools on the market, there's definitely tools. And wireless has been for a long time as a technology, as a set of technologies, I should say. And people have found ways to create specific applications to cover specific use cases and specific problems. 

Elijah@ 

But I actually, and we actually see that as a sort of larger problem, because you have so many different apps that you have to keep track of as a deployer. And that, as a company, puts you in a position where you have actually to hire more people in specific departments. 

Elijah@ 

And those people specifically run specific parts of the business and specifically use specific software to do those specific parts. And that just increases your headcount, increases your spending as a company. And you said yourself Steve, it's a very interesting part. 

Elijah@ 

It decreases your focus on actually building out coverage, high -end coverage. All of these management things, all of these things of questions of like, how do I deploy and where do I deploy and how do I maintain that deployment? 

Elijah@ 

Just sort of creates this bubble of problems that you as a team has to pretty much solve on a day -to -day basis. It puts these third -party applications in that equation, every issue that can be found with those third -party applications. 

Elijah@ 

And many times it's internal software, like you said, Python scripts is internal software, take larger companies to actually run like front -ends and back -ends to operate their networks. That plugs an entire engineering team into their business and that's a whole other set of expenses you have to handle. 

Elijah@ 

As one of the, and I can rant about it for hours, like I've been, there's so many calls with traditional and decentralized as well as the port, there's so many issues we can talk about. I think one of the, if you guys interested, you can go into our website, there's roadmap page and we literally lay out quarter by quarter where we're gonna be building. 

Elijah@ 

To give you a bit of a glimpse in like near future, I think it goes back to one of the interesting parts that we unraveled with our traditional wireless. We do believe that that bridge will just going to come very soon. And I think that with Relay's hyper -focus on large -scale deployers, it's only natural for us to go into traditional wireless world and start helping those folks as well. 

Elijah@ 

Obviously our entire focus right now is DY, making sure that DY deployers are covered and that's probably going to drag up until the end of the year. And then early next year, we would love to start working, we're planning to start working on helping with technology that we built for DY, start helping the traditional wireless folks as well. 

Elijah@ 

And the interesting part is a lot of people trying to differentiate the two, oh, traditional wild dinosaurs, take them out. And then DY, this new unicorn people in purple world that do all of these funny things and so forward thinking. 

Elijah@ 

A lot of processes are actually the same. You build network in the same exact way. I hate to beg the fairy tale for you, but that's the same thing. And so just allowing them to use the same set of tools, maybe tweaking them a bit to ensure that the traditional infrastructure is covered would be only natural stuff for us. 

Steve@ 

I love it. Yeah, traditional wireless is not bad, right? I mean, we built the same networks. It's the same processes at the end of the day. You know, the stuff I would like to see gone from traditional wireless or the traditional wireless version of taxi medallions. 

Steve@ 

And they're there. The more you understand this industry, the more you see the taxi medallion type of capture happening. And that's what I'd love to see go away. And I would love to centralize wireless ushers in this sort of a whisper wireless ISP renaissance. 

Steve@ 

And you see this explosion in smaller scale operators, you know, between two men team to up to a dozen people, very regionally focused. That would be an amazing outcome to bring that to light. And I'd love to see your tooling natively support this new era of servicing wireless networks. 

Steve@ 

So that's, I'd love to see it. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate you guys. Any closing thoughts here, Sean? 

Shaan@ 

I think you kind of hit the nail on the head, Steve, this renaissance. I think Elijah's empowering it. We're empowering it. There's going to be a renaissance where we're abstracting away dinosaur like prehistoric stuff that traditional wireless, these big telecoms are doing. 

Shaan@ 

And I think that's the most important part. Like when people think about decentralization, it's not. We're not entirely trying to start new cults and new systems about things that work. We're just trying to make things more efficient, like distribute power from doppers and more people can help do it. 

Shaan@ 

So bullish that you're here, Elijah, and excited to see what relay has to do when we scale up to become the next biggest MNO in the US. 

Elijah@ 

Exactly. Excited to be on this journey with you guys. I'm super excited for everything you, you change and you improve at Xnet. So keep it up. We keep it up and we're all going to win. 

Elijah@ 

Right up. Close, closing up and crypto and crypto terms. Walk me. You know, okay. 

Shaan@ 

See you guys next week.